Just to tie the threads together..
Discussion continuing here:
www.jehovahs-witness.com/topic/424250001/yahwehs-wonderful-creation#/420770003
defender of truth
JoinedPosts by defender of truth
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Theists, why does God allow suffering..
by The Quiet One in..specifically, the suffering of animals.
you can talk about free will/sin/people choosing to not listen to god etc to explain human suffering being allowed.. but how can you love a god that allows animals, that haven't sinned or chosen to not have anything to do with god, to have their short lives ended in often long, drawn out, painful ways.
i could list stories i've read that would probably make you feel ill, but i'm not looking to shock anyone or start an emotional debate.
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defender of truth
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Yahweh's wonderful creation
by fulltimestudent inwhen i thought of myself as a christian witness of yahweh attempting to be a footstep follower of jesus, psalm 104 was one of my favourites.
if i was ever in some wonderful scenic area, psalm 104 would jump into my mind, and i'd start to praise yahweh and jesus.. but if something horrible came to mind as in the following video, i'd always think of the favourite christian escape clause, it's all because of adam's sin.
but any connection between natural animal savagery and adam's sin is never logically made in the bible.. interestingly, the supposedly inspired psalm 104 (nwt-the grey one i guess) itself says that:.
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defender of truth
All evidence indicates that ancient life was exactly as it is today - brutal, violent, painful, and short. This, Jehovah's Witnesses must believe, was the perfect creation of God.
www.jwbeliefs.com/jehovahs-witnesses-believe-animal-suffering-and-death/
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Yahweh's wonderful creation
by fulltimestudent inwhen i thought of myself as a christian witness of yahweh attempting to be a footstep follower of jesus, psalm 104 was one of my favourites.
if i was ever in some wonderful scenic area, psalm 104 would jump into my mind, and i'd start to praise yahweh and jesus.. but if something horrible came to mind as in the following video, i'd always think of the favourite christian escape clause, it's all because of adam's sin.
but any connection between natural animal savagery and adam's sin is never logically made in the bible.. interestingly, the supposedly inspired psalm 104 (nwt-the grey one i guess) itself says that:.
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defender of truth
Perry:
Genesis 2-3 show that humanity and animals existed in apparent cooperation and harmony at some point in the past, and that animals were in the Garden.
Humanity and the animals were apparently herbivorous at the time (but not necessarily exclusively so-- they might have eaten insects or even occasional meat, but the bible seems to indicate that they were mainly plant-eating at the time)
Yawn.
The page is not even attempting to discuss the question of why animal suffering and predation was part of a loving God's perfect plan.. BEFORE humanity was 'created' ?
It doesn't mention the predators from millions of years ago, before Adam.
Genesis 8 indicates that God was mindful of the animals ("God remembered Noah and all the wild animals and the livestock that were with him in the ark").
You mean after he had needlessly, and with premeditation, drowned almost all of the world's animal population in the Flood??
How lovely of him to be mindful of the relatively few survivors of his mass murder.. Some thinktank they are (!)
6. Somewhere in the Messianic Future, the ecosystem will return to the basic original blueprint of peaceful harmony and generalized herbivory (or a comparable plan).
Where is the evidence for this 'basic original blueprint of peace, harmony and generalized herbivory'? In the Bible?
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Yahweh's wonderful creation
by fulltimestudent inwhen i thought of myself as a christian witness of yahweh attempting to be a footstep follower of jesus, psalm 104 was one of my favourites.
if i was ever in some wonderful scenic area, psalm 104 would jump into my mind, and i'd start to praise yahweh and jesus.. but if something horrible came to mind as in the following video, i'd always think of the favourite christian escape clause, it's all because of adam's sin.
but any connection between natural animal savagery and adam's sin is never logically made in the bible.. interestingly, the supposedly inspired psalm 104 (nwt-the grey one i guess) itself says that:.
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defender of truth
But if something horrible came to mind as in the following video, I'd always think of the favourite Christian escape clause, it's all because of Adam's sin.
But any connection between natural animal savagery and Adam's sin is never logically made in the Bible.
Great topic.
Natural animal savagery has been happening for millions of years, long before Adam existed, even if a person believes that he did exist at all.
Predation, even to the point of species becoming completely extinct, occurred well before the first sin was committed, before mankind existed even.
As you inferred, God's original Plan for his perfect creation must have involved a predator/prey arms race that has spanned, not just thousands, but millions of years.. How loving.
Here is an entire thread on the topic of animal suffering, for those who may have wondered why God allows animals to suffer:
www.jehovahs-witness.com/topic/222352/theists-why-does-god-allow-suffering?size=10&page=1
[There is a great introductory/summary link, showing briefly how this topic relates to Jehovahs Witness' beliefs, posted on the last page, for any who don't have time to read over 700 interesting replies..]
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This article indicates the org will consider policy changes
by defender of truth ini think they were just telling the arc what they wanted to hear.. what do you think?.
couple of interesting quotes:.
"mr o'brien, co-ordinator of the church's australian branch committee, told the commission the organisation was "open to change".. in evidence, he said the committee would consider the greater involvement of women in child sex abuse cases, clearer guidance for elders hearing allegations and better communication with victims and their families about their legal options.. mr o'brien told the commission the church did not have a redress scheme for sex abuse victims but would consider establishing one.. vincent toole, head of the church's watchtower bible and tract society, told the commission he would seek independent legal advice about the church's obligations to report child sex abuse to the authorities.. justice mcclellan asked mr toole if he understood there was a general obligation for every citizen to report crimes to the authorities.. "coming to this commission has been a wake-up call for me, i can assure you," mr toole said.. www.smh.com.au/nsw/royal-commission-jehovahs-witnesses-to-review-approach-to-sex-abuse-allegations-20150805-gis2fh.html.
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defender of truth
Typically they'd try to use confessional privilege to defend themselves from any obligation to report under this law, but they've not been doing that in Oz, and after Stewart's demolition of how it shouldn't be considered 'secret' I wonder whether other common law jurisdictions will take another look at the issue from this angle.
Boy I hope this RC has a profound effect in Britain..
It should do, if people are sufficiently moved, and willing to share their experiences with the Independent Inquiry.
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Just for the record Vincent Toole and Terrence Obrien you are both lying SOBs
by joe134cd ini just thought i would mention this on the off chance they might be lurking here.
the two quotes are.
(1)vincent toole ="i've never heard of the term 'theocratic warfare'".
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defender of truth
Terrence Obrien "people are free to leave or become inactive without being viewed negatively
Anecdotes here:
www.jehovahs-witness.com/topic/184422/shunning-inactive-jw-never-heard-about-before?page=1
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Just for the record Vincent Toole and Terrence Obrien you are both lying SOBs
by joe134cd ini just thought i would mention this on the off chance they might be lurking here.
the two quotes are.
(1)vincent toole ="i've never heard of the term 'theocratic warfare'".
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defender of truth
Terrence Obrien "people are free to leave or become inactive without being viewed negatively"
(b) Why is it urgent that inactive ones return to Jehovah?
17 Are you among those who are not now actively serving God? Perhaps someone in the congregation hurt you and as a result you stopped associating with Jehovah’s organization. Since some time may have passed, ask yourself: ‘Is my life now more meaningful, and am I happier? Was it Jehovah who offended me, or was it an imperfect human? Has Jehovah God ever done anything to harm me?’ Really, he has always done good toward us. Even if we are not living up to our dedication to him, he allows us to enjoy the good things he provides. (Jas. 1:16, 17)
Soon, Jehovah's day will come. Now is the time to return to our heavenly Father’s loving arms and to the congregation—the only safe haven in these last days.—Deut. 33:27; Heb. 10:24, 25."
www.jw.org/en/publications/magazines/w20131115/maintain-a-waiting-attitude/
Inactive ones are not viewed negatively, just as potential bird food any day now, like the rest of the human race...
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This article indicates the org will consider policy changes
by defender of truth ini think they were just telling the arc what they wanted to hear.. what do you think?.
couple of interesting quotes:.
"mr o'brien, co-ordinator of the church's australian branch committee, told the commission the organisation was "open to change".. in evidence, he said the committee would consider the greater involvement of women in child sex abuse cases, clearer guidance for elders hearing allegations and better communication with victims and their families about their legal options.. mr o'brien told the commission the church did not have a redress scheme for sex abuse victims but would consider establishing one.. vincent toole, head of the church's watchtower bible and tract society, told the commission he would seek independent legal advice about the church's obligations to report child sex abuse to the authorities.. justice mcclellan asked mr toole if he understood there was a general obligation for every citizen to report crimes to the authorities.. "coming to this commission has been a wake-up call for me, i can assure you," mr toole said.. www.smh.com.au/nsw/royal-commission-jehovahs-witnesses-to-review-approach-to-sex-abuse-allegations-20150805-gis2fh.html.
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defender of truth
I think they were just telling the ARC what they wanted to hear.
What do you think?
Couple of interesting quotes:
"Mr O'Brien, co-ordinator of the church's Australian Branch Committee, told the commission the organisation was "open to change".
In evidence, he said the committee would consider the greater involvement of women in child sex abuse cases, clearer guidance for elders hearing allegations and better communication with victims and their families about their legal options.
Mr O'Brien told the commission the church did not have a redress scheme for sex abuse victims but would consider establishing one.
Vincent Toole, head of the church's Watchtower Bible and Tract Society, told the commission he would seek independent legal advice about the church's obligations to report child sex abuse to the authorities.
Justice McClellan asked Mr Toole if he understood there was a general obligation for every citizen to report crimes to the authorities.
"Coming to this commission has been a wake-up call for me, I can assure you," Mr Toole said.
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Pedophiles in Good Standing
by UnDisfellowshipped inhere is a very good quote you can use against the society from a watchtower publication that everyone knows: .
you can live forever in paradise on earth book, pages 187-188: .
"if church members who gamble, get drunk or do other wrongs are permitted to remain in good standing within their church, what does this show?
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defender of truth
Back to the topic..
"as a protection to our children, former child molesters are not permitted to receive positions of responsibility in our religion." -- J.R. Brown (JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES, PUBLIC AFFAIRS OFFICE, PRESS RELEASE, August 7, 2001)
"People in the Organization who are accused of sex abuse are subject to a Hearing...
They are automatically removed from leadership positions and can't go door-to-door without other members' being present." -- J.R. Brown ("The Washington Post" Newspaper, May 11th 2002)
"People in the Organization who are accused of sex abuse are subject to a Hearing like the one Barbara Anderson attended yesterday, [J.R.] Brown said. They are automatically removed from leadership positions and can't go door-to-door without other members' being present." ("The Tennessean/Nashville" Newspaper, May 11th 2002)
"On rare occasions a member of a congregation of Jehovah's Witnesses takes up or reverts to the disgusting habit of child molestation.
Even if he gives extensive evidence of genuine repentance and has stopped his wrongdoing, the individual is severely censored by the congregation and is not protected from criminal investigation and/or prosecution.
Even if today years have passed, he does not qualify for any responsibilities in the congregation.
The individual is also directed that he should not be in any unsupervised company of children, including when he engages in any public witnessing.
Additionally, elders of Jehovah's Witnesses are alerted to any past behavior of such an individual so as to protect the safety of any children in the congregation with whom he comes into contact.
If the person moves to another congregation, the elders in the new congregation are notified; his record goes with him." (Jehovah's Witnesses Office of Public Information Press Release: Statement on silentlambs march, September 27, 2002)
...?
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Woman sues JWs - Mom's inheritance, 300 000$ signed over to JWs 1 week before her death!
by StephaneLaliberte inthis article is written in french: .
http://gatineau.rougefm.ca/info-gatineau-ottawa/2015/08/08/elle-donne-son-heritage-aux-temoins-de-jehovah-sa-fille-depose-le-dossier-en-cour-superieure .
the mother, who passed away in the spring of 2015, signed a new will just one week before her death, while she was dying, in which she made the jws beneficiary of her 300 000 $ dollars inheritance.
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defender of truth
She won't be the only elderly person signing over her money, there are plenty of elderly ones out there with money to leave when they die, hence the push to convert them..
www.jehovahs-witness.com/topic/280863/protect-elderly?page=4#/5070279